Talk:Alphabetizing and Indexing Vietnamese names

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 04:27, Dan Duffy <vietnamlit@gmail.com> wrote: > I have got a good Wikivietlit entry by a ms. editor who offers his views on > this. It needs one last pass of copyediting of its own, awaiting time and > money. Sorry. > > My aunt Paula initiated the most recent manual when she was publisher at > Chicago. Will pass this along to her. > > Dan > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:04 PM, David Biggs <biggsbiggs@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues- >> >> Happy August! (I know, my plan for a business meeting blog have stalled, >> but more on that later.) I have an insanely nerdy, nitpicky question about >> Vietnamese names in book indexes. >> >> Has anyone noticed the wholly confusing rule of the Chicago Manual of >> Style (CMOS) with regard to indexing Vietnamese names? Here's the latest >> (16th Ed.) rule: >> >> ------------- >> >> 16.86 - Indexing Vietnamese names >> >> Vietnamese names consist of three elements, the family name being the >> first. Since Vietnamese persons are usually referred to by the last part of >> their given names (Premier Diem, General Giap), they are best indexed under >> that form. >> >> Diem, Ngo Dinh [cross-reference under Ngo Dinh Diem] >> Giap, Vo Nguyen [cross-reference under Vo Nguyen Giap] >> >> ------------- >> >> I did a quick survey of some titles on my shelf and I noticed what might >> be a trend. >> >> 1. All of the recent books published by authors in the Vietnam Studies >> area indexed Vietnamese names last name first (ie Ngo Dinh Diem) with no >> cross-references (ie Diem, Ngo Dinh. See Ngo Dinh Diem). >> >> 2. Old classics such as Francis Fitzgerald's Fire in the Lake likewise >> index Vietnamese names last name first. For popular names like "Diem," they >> list "Diem, Ngo Dinh" but then cross-reference to "Ngo Dinh Diem" rather >> than the present CMOS rule which is reverse. >> >> 3. Newer books primarily on the war by authors (likely with limited >> knowledge of Vietnamese language) such as A.J. Langguth's Our Vietnam: The >> War 1954-1975 tend to list both versions of names but generally follow the >> CMOS rule, thus referring "Ngo Dinh Diem" to "See Diem, Ngo Dinh". However, >> in the same book, less popular names like "Hoang Van Thai" or "Ngo Dinh >> Thuc" are only listed last name first so its inconsistent. "Ho Chi Minh," >> likewise, is not cross-referenced to "Minh, Ho Chi" - because its an alias? >> "Nguyen Ai Quoc" doesn't either, nor does it even "See also Ho Chi Minh." >> Reading this index closely, I am wondering what was the cutoff? Why did >> Diem and Nhu get the special treatment, but not brother Thuc? >> >> My point is that following the CMOS rule leads to chaos in a book index. >> Personally, I like opting for the Fitzgerald approach. If one is going to >> index a commonly used first name like "Giap" or "Diem", it should >> cross-refer to "Vo Nguyen Giap" or "Ngo Dinh Diem" and not vice-versa. Do >> any members have a line in with Chicago Press who may want to point this >> out? Thoughts?